14 Replies Latest reply on Sep 18, 2017 1:06 PM by james_jenkins

    Agilent Cool on column ALS injector problems

    bioarch1

      Afternoon forum members,

       

      I am hoping that someone might be able to shed some light on our injector issue. We had a COC injector port installed on the back inlet of our 7890a GC - FID.

       

      When the autosampler (7963 plugged into back inlet port) lowers to inject the sample - the A/S stops with a shudder and goes into fault mode - the plunger remains depressed. I can manually inject the sample at this point and then raise the injector. Needle is not bent. I have loosened off the septa cap to ensure the needle is not getting pinched during the injection, and double checked that the syringe needle was not the problem by removing it altogether and trying another injection - ALS stops at point of injection.

       

      Fault log reports 'Sampler error #901 Auto Injector back tower syringe error' and turret flashes red twice, which according to the manual indicates that I need to reinstate or replace syringe - both of which I have done

       

      I have tried realigning the A/S using the automatic align on the turret - and all seems OK. I can manually inject a sample, so I am happy with the alignment of the 0.53um guard column and associated COC parts and we have the 0.53 on column nut with septa in place. I have also changed the needle guide 'foot' to the one that came with the kit.

       

      The needle is a 5ul Agilent on column syringe (5182 0836) with 0.32 needle, inlet pressure is 10psi has a septum purge of 15ml/min.

       

      Has anyone experienced this issue - or be able to shed some light on it please.

       

      Many thanks,

       

      Matt

        • Re: Agilent Cool on column ALS injector problems
          kristen.sensabaugh

          Hi Matt,

           

          Did the system work before, and if it did, did anything change between the time that the system was working and now?

           

          It is important that all of the autosampler and inlet/column components are compatible with one another.  You can verify this one of two ways:

           

          1.  Use the Parts Finder Tool.  If you don't have the Parts Finder Tool, you can download it from Agilent.com here:  Agilent | Parts Finder Tool

          If you view the 7890A GC model, click on the inlets view and select cool on column you can see a nice visual representation of the components that need to be installed with a .53mm column.

          2.  Reference the Cool on Column section beginning on page 93 in the 7890 Series Maintenance Manual:  http://www.agilent.com/cs/library/usermanuals/public/G3430-90052%207890B_Maintaining%20Guide.pdf

           

          Let me know what you find and we can go from there.

           

          Best Regards,

          Kristen

            • Re: Agilent Cool on column ALS injector problems
              bioarch1

              Hi Kristen,

               

              Thanks for the speedy reply and links, really useful.

               

              Everything parts wise appear OK. The ALS syringe (5ul gold syringe barrel (5182 0836) with 0.32um 26-32/42 cone needle (5182-0831)) is listed under 7673/7683 On Column autosampler syringes, but appears in the parts finder under the A/S we are using. I believe that Agilent put the parts list together for us when we requested a quote for the inlet. The installation engineer didn't raise any problems - but as we did not have the ferrules at time of installation - we could not install the column and test the ALS

               

              The system (which was connected to the MS instead of the FID) was working correctly on the split/splitless inlet (albeit with a different syringe) the day before, so I am pretty sure it is all working correctly. I am going to change the inlet in the method and check - it would be sheer coincidence if the A/S has gone wrong at exactly the same time as changing the inlets (but stranger things do happen!)

               

              Not sure if this helps to narrow down the problem?

               

              Thanks

               

              Matt

               

               

               

               

               

                • Re: Agilent Cool on column ALS injector problems
                  kristen.sensabaugh

                  Hi Matt,

                   

                  Thank you for the information.  Trying to run the ALS on the Split Splitless Inlet should help to rule out a problem with the ALS; as you said I would be surprised if it errors out (as long as you remember to change the needle support guide and syringe).

                   

                  You mentioned that you did change the ALS needle support guide to operate on the Cool on Column, which is critical.  Can you reference page 110 in the maintenance manual to verify the correct part is installed in the ALS for use with the cool on column, and also make sure that it is installed properly:  http://www.agilent.com/cs/library/usermanuals/public/G3430-90052%207890B_Maintaining%20Guide.pdf 

                   

                  I'm guessing that in your method for the cool on column you have the method configured to use the back injector, correct?  Did you change the way the ALS is plugged into the back of the GC?  I don't know if that should really matter or not, but this is worth trying.  Shut down your data system (software control).  Power off the GC, and plug the ALS cable into the middle ALS port (refer to page 13 of the installation manual, I think it is referred to as Sampler 2 or Back Injector on the back of the GC):  http://www.agilent.com/cs/library/usermanuals/public/7890B_Installation.pdf  After you change the cable position, power on the GC and then re-launch the software control.  You will probably get a notice that the GC configuration has changed, which is normal.

                   

                  A couple of notes about supply choice: thru-hole septa would be recommended (part number 5181-1260), and if you are injecting into a .530 retention gap, using a 23/26 gauge needle is a robust solution.

                  Let me know what the results of your tests are and we'll go from there.

                   

                  Best Regards,

                  Kristen

                    • Re: Agilent Cool on column ALS injector problems
                      bioarch1

                      Hi Kristen,

                       

                      Checked the ALS on the front inlet S/S and all ok. The support guide is

                      installed correctly as per the installation guide, and I have had the ALS

                      plugged into both front and back sampler ports, no improvement in either

                      case.

                       

                      Is it possible that the difference in height between the front and back

                      inlets in relation to where the autosampler mounts has anything to do with

                      this, the top of the  COC inlet septa nut have screw threads, but for what

                      is not clear. The S/S stand proud compared with the COC which is much lower?

                       

                      Thanks again

                       

                      Matt

                        • Re: Agilent Cool on column ALS injector problems
                          kristen.sensabaugh

                          Hi Matt,

                           

                          Thanks for modifying the ALS cable connection; it was worth a try.

                           

                          Did you double check to make sure that the spring is installed in the inlet and that you are using the correct insert (it shouldn't have any lines on it, from the set-up that you described).

                          What ALS injector plunger speed are you using?  If you are using fast plunger speed you could try to change it to slow and see if that has any impact.  You need to expand the injector parameters box (click on the arrow box under washes and pumps) to change the speed.

                           

                          Can you send me a photo of the Cool on Column inlet and also measure the height from the top of the septum nut to the base and let me know what it is?

                           

                          Best Regards,

                          Kristen

                            • Re: Agilent Cool on column ALS injector problems
                              bioarch1

                              Hi Kristen,

                               

                              Plunger speed is set to slow, have been advised not to use fast. Insert and

                              spring are in correctly.

                               

                              Distance between to of nut to base, assuming that you mean mounting plate

                              the inlet sits on, is approximately 2cm. Just got reference, the S/S sits

                              ~16mm higher than the coc inlet at the point the needle guide meets both

                              inlets.

                               

                              Matt

                                • Re: Agilent Cool on column ALS injector problems
                                  kristen.sensabaugh

                                  Hi Matt,

                                   

                                  The cool on column inlet does sit lower and the ALS should be accommodating for the height difference.  From everything that you've told me it sounds like the syringe carriage is encountering an interference and we need to determine what the interference is.

                                   

                                  Can you try the following:

                                  1.  Use the same needle guide "foot" that you are using for the SSL inlet.  This is the needle guide "foot" that should be used with a .53mm column.  Try to run the ALS and see if it works.

                                  2.  If step 1 doesn't work, take out the syringe and entire needle guide assembly (the part that the needle guide "foot" is connected to) and try to run the ALS.

                                   

                                  Let me know the results of step 1 and 2.  If the ALS errors in both of these cases, can you please take a video recording (without the needle guide assembly installed) so that I can see at what point the ALS is having trouble?  If the video file is too large to upload, you can send me an email @ kristen.sensabaugh@agilent.com.

                                   

                                  Thanks,

                                  Kristen

                      • Re: Agilent Cool on column ALS injector problems
                        fchl235

                        Hi Matt:

                         

                        I am entering the forum late, so hopefully by now you have resolved your problem.  I also use COC injection, but with Mass Spec.  Initially I had some problems with the COC injector in which the 5uL needles were bending on injection; however, this was coupled with other problems that were more related to the mass spec and the new extractor source.  Initially we did not use a guard column, but the service engineer added the 0.53 um guard column and also switched the needle to a 10ul fixed needle (part# 5181-1267).  This alleviated the bent needle.  I don't know if that will help your situation since you didn't seem to have a problem with your needle.  Also make sure in your Inlet & Injection Parameters, the inlet location is set for Rear and the injection source is set for GC-ALS and not manual.  Also that the ALS is set for back injector.  Again, hopefully you have resolved your problem and are up and running.

                         

                        Regards,

                        Dawn Harrison

                        USDA

                        • Re: Agilent Cool on column ALS injector problems
                          kristen.sensabaugh

                          Hi Matt,

                           

                          Were you able to get your ALS injector to work on your Cool on Column inlet?

                           

                          Thanks,

                          Kristen

                          • Re: Agilent Cool on column ALS injector problems
                            james_jenkins

                            Hi Matt,

                            I just wanted to follow-up to see if this issue is resolved.  If so, please come back to the post and click the “Correct Answer” button on the response that help so it will make the solution more visible.  If you still need help, just let us know and we would be happy to continue working with you.